Seniors - Finish the story "Finding Gwen." Be prepared to write about it and demonstrate your understanding of the ending tomorrow.
AP Language: Read "Once More to the Lake." The first time you read, read to understand and enjoy the language (don't annotate yet!). The second time you read it, focus on White's use of THE PERIODIC SENTENCE. Find them and annotate them. How does this type of sentence create tone? What is the tone and where does it change?
COMMENTARIES!
Today, you will write a comment on this blog post as your first commentary.
1. Read over the definition of a commentary as we constructed in a few weeks ago here: Commentary Defined
2. Draft your commentary, keeping in mind that others will read and respond to it. If you don't know how to get started, use the prompts "I wonder..." and "This makes me think..." If you are still struggling, here is a question to get you started: Did Bobby's father deserve to die?
3. Post your commentary in the comments section of this blog post.
4. Read and reply to others. Try not to simply agree or disagree, but engage in a conversation.What do other people's posts make you wonder and think?
5. If you finish early, start reading the short story, "The Pura Principle."
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ReplyDeleteFrom the first paragraph of the story it’s already clear the author has an interesting way of capturing readers attention. Within the first paragraph, were introduced to Mandy. Mandy is the hooker Bobby’s father got for him as a welcome home present. Although Mandy has a minor role, the author gives some dimension to her. We find out that Mandy the hooker, really wants to be Mandy the screenwriter. I have heard versions of the story before such as the stripper who is saving for college or medical school (that sort of thing) but never the stripper who wants to write movies. Bobby himself is an interesting character. It’s not as common that you hear a story narrated in the second person pov. When you do come across such a story, at times it can sound weird and even confusing at first. I guess i’m thinking of the characters more than i’m thinking of the story. Maybe that’s because in many stories, the characters are the stories. Sort of like in Flight, although Zits’ was the only character that the reader truly got to know, the other characters contributed largely to some of the controlling themes of the book.
ReplyDeleteThis piece “Until Gwen” follows the characters Bobby and his son who was just released from prison and their journey to find some Diamonds hidden somewhere by the son. The son was shot twice in the head so he forgets where he has hidden them. The father will stop at nothing to get the Diamond so when the Son leads them to the Diamond the father decides to kill him, but the son sabotaged his gun and overpowers him with a knife. We learn that the father killed the sons girlfriend and buried her body. We learn that the Diamonds are in Gwens stomach, so the son kills him and buries him with Gwen and the Diamonds. This Story made me think about why the son would not take the Diamonds with him, after he had found them and killed his father. I believe it is because the son thought that his past should better stay buried
ReplyDeleteBobby didn't take the diamonds because he valued Gwen's life more than the monetary value of the diamond. His father was the exact opposite. I think that symbolism you bring yo at the end is reading too much into it.
DeleteI don't have time to comment at length, but I agree with Liam that it's symbolic. What does the final image symbolize?
DeleteI wonder if the relationship between Bobby and the father occurs in real life, are fathers that neglecting of their own child? I wonder how could the story end in an ambiguous way leaving the reader hanging. I wonder if bad relationships between a son and a father could possibly fuel authenticity or a new beginning. This makes me think of how in Flight the relationship between his father and him has such a neglecting effect on the outcome of his personality initially. Similar to this story in how the actual presence of his father also makes the son want to resent him in a way. In general this makes me feel that in reality whether a son has a neglecting father or no father at all, it will affect the child in a drastic way making them either resent themselves from emotions and identity or their father.
ReplyDeleteMy name is LUKA!!!!
Did Bobby's father deserve to die?
ReplyDeleteIn Until Gwen, Bobby’s father seeks a diamond that he cannot get a hold of. By Bobby’s father getting a hold of this diamond, it would ensure that he would have had the power he sought out for. This makes me wonder; why did Bobby’s father only want power for himself? He is portrayed throughout the story as a selfish man whose only concern is his living and wealth. Through out the text, it is discovered that he is a killer and a manipulator. He killed Gwen and then later attempts by manipulating his son to find the diamond that is hidden within her. Although the actions that Bobby’s father committed were awful, he did not deserve to die. Bobby killing his father did not really make him any better then his father cause he too committed an evil act. His father deserved to live a life where he was had no ability to receive any valuables. This would truly be miserable life for his father since he was not used to living under conditions where he had wealth. Bobby’s father dying meant that he never experienced the life he deserved to live, which was a very huge downgrade from the one he was living.
In the text Bobby’s father is portrayed as a horrible man, who does not have a conscious; Or as a man who ignores his conscious when doing something like killing Gwen or the prostitute Mandy. The father gets an ending fit to his crimes and lifestyle of doing whatever it takes for him to benefit himself. When his son asks him “ What else ya got , you ain’t stealing something, killing somebody, making sure no one alive has a good fucking day?” he’s right the father has lived a life full of nothing but selfishly taking away from others, and not caring how wrong it is. The reason i think the fathers ending to his life is so fit for him is because of the circumstances. Bobby’s own father was ready to kill his son and take of with the diamond but his son predicts this chain of events and instead turns the tables around and makes his dad dig his own grave. The best part of the fathers death is that his son reveals where the diamond was the whole time and gives the father a string of hope but then crushes this new found hope with a smack a few quick smacks to the head with the shovel that helped dig his own grave. Bobby taught his father a life lesson with a taste of what he dished out to others his entire life. Bobby’s father spent his whole life walking all over people for selfish reasons, and he will spend the rest of his life being walked on but now 6 feet under next to two women he murdered.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Bobby went to jail? What was he accused for? Was he accused for killing George even though it was his father? I have noticed that the women in the story are killed off in the story and are mentioned every so often in the book. Although women exit the story, the have a big impact on characters except for Mandy. When George’s mother died, he was horrified and when Gwen died Bobby has felt lost. But I wonder whether or not the dad was sad when Bobby’s mother died? I noticed on page 10 when Bobby says “1 just can’t imagine it anymore. I want to…”, it is the first time he doesnt use “You” even though he has done that consistently through out the story. The relationship between Gwen and Bobby reminded me of Zits and Justice when he said “ she was seeing you- really seeing you. Nobody’d ever done that, nobody.”(10). Zits often repeated that Justice understood him and saw him for who he really was. I wonder when and why the dad began killing people. Did he have a rough childhood like Zit’s father?
ReplyDeleteThis entire story makes me really uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with the prostitution or the horrific thought of an elderly women being shot in the ass. I think the reason I feel uncomfortable is because of how much Lehane humanizes his characters. For example, Mandy wasn’t defined solely on her being a hooker. She was a passionate aspiring screenwriter and probably prostituted for money since she had two other jobs. This makes me feel a lot more empathy when I found out that she was murdered by Bobby’s father. And later, Bobby’s father murdered Gwen to reduce who knew about the diamond. I just don’t understand how someone could be so evil as to kill the love of their son’s life. I think that’s part of the source that makes me uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI just keep thinking that this short story is like a Criminal Minds episode in which the victim is always humanized and how the truly evil people aren’t. Like Mandy, Gwen, George, and Bobby all had more to them than being a criminal. But not Bobby’s father. I think that’s why he is arguably the evilest character in the story because Lehane portrays no reason as to why he would do evil things. Mandy probably prostituted for money. Gwen could have done it out of love. George shot Bobby for revenge. But most importantly, Bobby became a criminal because his father put him in that position by utilizing him for multiple scams and robberies. The only character without any implied or explicit justification is Bobby’s father.
I’m just uncomfortable on the morality of the story. I’m wondering if there are any justifications that allow people to do evil things. If so, are any of them plausible excuses? I personally don’t think so. I think Bobby’s awful childhood explains why he was evil enough to want to kill his father, but I don’t necessarily think that means he shouldn’t be held accountable for it. The same goes for his father, if he even has a legitimate reason, and for all other characters and all other people. The same logic is also applicable to other instances of evil like any genocide or war or unlawful and/or cruel imprisonment and/or treatment of others.
Being shot in the ass doesn't make you feel uncomfortable? However, it is understandable to feel uncomfortable about morality, especially when it comes to doing things such as taking a life.
DeleteThe author, Dennis Lehane creates a story that is unique through its second person narrative. The narrator, however in himself is not unique because he doesn’t have a character. there is no name or history behind the man who is speaking. I believe that lehane does this to establish the readers insight into the story. He wants the reader to not have a criteria when reading; they are completely free to think whatever they want. Although readers always gather their own point of view, Until Gwen is different because the reader is neutral. They are never constantly reading about one character's point of view on a certain situation, so they are free to develop their own inferences and assumptions.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Bobby felt justified by killing his father. He knew that his father was going to try and kill him, but did he want to kill his father or was it just self defense? Its obvious that he deserved to die since he was killing people left and right, and was about to kill his own son. Bobby lost his love Gwen because of his father and he severed time in prison trying to steal this diamond for his father so you would think that justice would come with his death. However when Bobby kills him, there is no sense of relief or justice. Instead Bobby continues to mourn over Gwen, and realizes how lost in the world he is. This makes me think that Bobby killed his father in self defence and that he is so torn over Gwen that killing his dad doesn't make him feel any better.
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I wonder if Bobby’s father felt remorse for what he did. I believe that remorse or a feeling of guilt does assist in when one is determined to be good or evil. When one does not feel guilt for what they have done, generally it i because they believe what they have done was not wrong. And when someone commits an act that is wrong and they don’t realize what they have done is wrong, there is normally something wrong. It seems as though what happened to Billy’s father was coming to him, for we witness repeatedly the mistreatment he shows to his son. Buying him a prostitute and alcohol for his coming home gift, scamming for money, and in the end, killing his sons love.
What about Bobby's past shows how he was affected by the loss of Gwen? Was the reason for his jail sentence related to some kind of self destruction that occurred for him after Gwen's passing? Would Bobby be different if Gwen hadn't died? From reading his description of Gwen and the title of the story being “Until Gwen”, I wonder if all the events within the text are somehow connected to his relationship with Gwen. He says “Until Gwen, you had no idea who you were. None. During Gwen, you knew. After Gwen, you’re back to wondering” (13). I think that Bobby constantly gets himself into trouble because he feels lost without having Gwen to guide him. I also think that his recurring memories of Gwen bring him sadness, and prevent him from being able to move on and find himself all on his own, without her help. He becomes self destructive after Gwen dies that it leads to his jail sentence, and once he is released he gets shot in the head twice.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Bobby's father lived a very antagonist life, he did not deserve to die. This sounds selfish to say considering he committed a great deal of harm to others but one crux concept that should be understood about life itself is that everyone and anyone can traverse the line from good to evil. Bobby himself had followed in his fathers footstep. The reader learns this when Bobby's father comes to pick him up from prison with a hooker in the backseat of his car and a 8-ball of coke in his compartment. Right then and there, pre-judgments are made about Bobby and his father. Bobby commits the same evil acts his father has been committing for years when he kills his father. I guess he was just so fed up with his fathers greed and selfishness that he decided it was a better idea to kill him but he didn't realizing he was crossing the same line deeper into evil that his father had crossed plenty of times before.
ReplyDeleteUntil Gwen focuses alot on the commentary between the two main characters. A father and son’s relationship is depicted very precisely in a very R-rated fashion. The story starts off with the father picking up his son from prison alongside a prostitute snorting cocaine. Looking past the drugs, violence, and profanity in this story, you the audience get an idea of a father son relationship that includes all of the “regular” elements but in a not so regular scenario. What this means is the author, Dennis Lehane, uses normal father/son relationship attributes such as a sign of protection over the kid, being stern, teaching the kid (even though they aren’t “regular” things to teach a kid), etc. but applies those attributes during an absurd series of events they go through. Many people can’t say that they have experienced a situation like this one, thats why it is always interesting to see the reactions and emotions of something that is normally very consistent.
ReplyDeleteThe story starts off with Bobby being released from prison and his father picking him up. But why was Bobby in prison in the first place? I wonder what he was accused and convicted of. Bobby does bad things although he has a conscious which implies that he does bad things because of the way he was raised by his father. The influence that Bobby’s father has on him is significant because towards the end of the story the father isn’t referred to as “your father anymore”. He now becomes “the old man” which is almost a give that something bad is going to happen. And something bad does happen. Bobby kills his father (the old man). The change of the father’s title in the story conveys the idea that Bobby’s father had finally became an old man and no longer bobby’s father. It demonstrates how his perception of his father has changed now that he has seen the then murdered gwen, someone murdered at the hands of his father, he no longer sees someone within his father’s body, nothing morally attaches him to care for this man, hes no longer his father in a sense, in Bobby’s eyes.
ReplyDeleteUntil Gwen is a captivating short story by Dennis Lehane. Lehane goes into depth and closely examines the relationship between father and son. Father and son relationships are often meaningful and recurring ideas throughout many texts. Much like Lehan, Sherman Alexie explores the interesting dynamics of a father and son relationship in his novel Flight. Both authors strongly criticize the relationships between father and son. In Until Gwen the first line of the story is “Your father picks you up from prison in a stolen Dodge Neon, with an 8-ball of coke in the glove compartment.” Initially Lehan established that this guy is pretty much a dead beat. The last line of the story is “because whatever it is or could have been is buried with her, beneath your father, beneath the dirt you begin throwing back in.” So in short, the narrator in the beginning emphasizes that his father is pretty shitty, and in the end the narrator kills him but that does not necessarily make him feel better. In Flight, Alexie introduces the narrator, Zits’ father as deadbeat no good alcoholic dad who’s not around either. In the end of flight Zit’s goes on a sci-fi journey which allows him to inhabit the body of his father and eventually realizes that he’s better off without him but his father remains deadbeat. Ultimately both authors critique the father-son relationship, and neither of them conclude the relationship in a way that has a clear and concise resolution between father and son.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Sherman Alexie and Dennis Lehane explore an unhealthy relationship between father and son. Is it because they believe it is more relatable or if it is just more interesting than exploring a healthy relationship? Why does Lehane characterize Mandy as an idiot and why does Alexie not explore the relationship between son and mother. It makes me think that these two authors are unintentionally sexist. Although Lehane characterizes women as a burden Lehane also demonstrates the power a women can have over a man in a relationship through the characterization of Gwen. The fact that Bobby knew who he was when he was with Gwen and lost himself when he lost her, demonstrates this belief. When Bobby refers to his father as an “old man” I think it demonstrates the lack of respect he has for his father as well as the fact that he views him as a weak man. In conclusion, Until Gwen explores the complicated relationship between father and son and man and women
ReplyDelete"Until Gwen" is a short story by Dennis Lehane that forces it's main character, Bobby, into a moral crossroads. Bobby is threatened by his father and is forced to kill him. While this seems to be a near impossible decision, Bobby's father doesn't have much going for him to stop Bobby from wanting to kill him: He killed Gwen (Bobby's lover) and has used Bobby his entire life for a variety of scams. In the end, Bobby isn't faced with such a tough choice. Furthermore, in Sherman Alexie's novel, Flight, he presents the father in a similar light. While Zits' father never goes so far as killing someone, he is presented as a horrible father due to his alcoholism and the fact that he abandoned Zits and his mother. However, when Zits inhabits his father he sees memories of his that led to his fathers ultimate inability to be a father. Was this something that was simply omitted from "Until Gwen"? It is also important to note that in neither story the father's name is given, possibly indicating a lack of compassion toward the father from the narrators POV. Even after Zits embodies his father and understands why he did what he did, he doesn't share his name. This could imply that the damage has been done, and no level of regret or act from the father can right their wrongs.
ReplyDeleteWhat stuck out to me was how both Sherman Alexie and Dennis Lehane explore the relationship between father and son. And in a way, in both texts the father seems to have some sort of control and influence over the protagonist. We see this in “Until Gwen” when Bobby’s father picks him up from the prison and is illustrated as a greedy, and selfish man who seems to put money above all else. In addition, he has no fatherly affection for his son and sees him as a tool in order to reach his goals. The father doesn’t seem to have any sort of morality, which is seen by his scamming and cheating in order to make money. Because of this bad behavior, Bobby is also involved with these immoral actions and has been badly influenced by his father. Similarly, in Sherman Alexie’s “Flight”, he presents the father to be known as someone who bad and has a negative influence on his son. This is evident mostly when Zits describes how his father is a horrible person due to his drinking habits and for abandoning his son. And although these two texts share similar unhealthy relationships of father and son, in “Flight”, Zits inhabits other bodies and most importantly his father in order to empathize with him for what he has done whereas “Until Gwen” doesn’t.
ReplyDeleteBobby felt completely lost without Gwen, no one else around Bobby had made Bobby feel the same as Gwen had. Almost every paragraph in the story shows Bobby reminiscing about Gwen. The father seems like a con artist, and at the end of the story it was interesting to see what the father would react to Bobby when he saw the body, the father did not seem to understand the sons view of Gwen. In the story it did seem like Gwen had been a good person, she seemed like she was forced into an uncomfortable situation between Bobby and his family/friends. They cut out Gwens stomach because she was pregnant but I wonder why they had done that. It wasn’t too clear. Bobby hated his father because he had killed Gwen. Bobby showed a lot of emotion towards his father, this was shown when he hit him on the head with the shovel numerous times.
ReplyDeleteThe father was horrible, he committed many illegal acts, possession of drugs, killing people and stealing a car, I also saw him as a con artist. At first I thought Bobby was just as bad as his father but it seemed like he had a lot of guilt while he was in jail. I thought it was a weird story it was very confusing and I still don’t completely understand the point, to me it seemed like he was just reminicing about Gwen the whole story. It did not have a climax it seems.
One of the main things that stuck out to me in Until Gwen was the portrayal of a father and son relationship and how it compares to Sherman Alexie’s Flight. Both stories explore how fathers can indirectly be an influence in their son’s life. The major difference between the two stories’ portrayal of the father and son relationship is that Bobby and his father are not estranged like Zits and his father are. The two portrayals draw similarities with how both fathers have neglected their children - Zit’s father outright abandoned Zits before he was born, while Bobby’s father used Bobby for scams and robberies. As much as Bobby and Zits resent their fathers for their neglect, they ended up just like them; Zits, at least in the beginning of Flight, is a bitter alcoholic who has been arrested one too many times for a fifteen year old, and Bobby leads a life of committing crimes - in the beginning of Until Gwen he was just released from jail. Ultimately they both portray a unhealthy relationship between a father and son, and the idea that an absent father can just as big of an impact on their son’s life as a father who was always there.
ReplyDeleteI’m absolutely sure that all of us have heard the saying “what goes around, comes around”. In response to the prompt, Bobby’s father did deserve to die due to the fact that he committed many acts of violence to so many people. Dad is definitely not a good person. He comes to pick up Bobby in a stolen car. He has drugs and has killed numerous people including George and Gwen. Also, he scams people into paying him for services he does not provide. Bobby was used to assist his father in the scams but since he has been in prison he has done a lot of thinking and seems to want to change his ways. Since Bobby’s father carried out many acts of violence, karma just bit him in the butt. Bobby’s character development is parallel to the development of Zits (Flight) since both of these characters initially resemble their fathers personalities, but after change of events these characters grow out of these habits(going from good to evil). These characters demonstrate that people can change from good to evil.
ReplyDeleteThis makes me think that about the relationships between fathers and sons - similar to Zits in Flight. Does Bobby’s father influence him and if so, how does he affect him?
ReplyDeleteIn Flight, Zits’ father is absent throughout the novel until he inhabits his body; but he goes through other experiences where he is heavily influenced by fatherly-type figures. It’s interesting that Bobby’s father is present through the story, and I think that his influence is pretty evident.
I also found it interesting that the author chose to write in a second point of view - it was at first confusing but ultimately gave a unique feeling.
Until Gwen made me think about how unpredictable your life can be no matter what road you take. I wonder if the father had killed the prostitute that appeared in the beginning of the story, as the father stated that he took her home, although he doesn’t state where ‘home’ was, and that there is a likely chance that he killed Gwen to cover up loose ends. The questions that come to my mind are, Was the diamond that was stolen from the miner before the narrator was arrested hidden in Gwen’s stomach? If it is so, how did get there, did she swallow it? If not then what could it be? When the narrator killed his father and started putting the dirt back into the pit, did he give up on his own name, as it could be one of his connection with Gwen? These questions tend to show the ambiguous meanings of the story. This also lead to the understanding of evil being in people that other people can/can’t see. If there is evil in the road you take, then it can affect you to follow its path, or it can help you take a different path like justice or revenge as in the story, the narrator kills the father for killing Gwen and using him.
ReplyDeleteUntil Gwen makes me think about the relationship between a father and a son and how a father can influence a son in different ways. Unlike in Flight, Bobby had a father that seemed to influence him yet Bobby still had his own way of thinking and actually "felt" things. Bobby's father seemed like he didn't have any sense of feelings towards others or have any special relationships because he seemed to call people by nick names, whereas the son knew their name. This makes me think about how in Flight, Zits didn't have his father around with him but he ended up somewhat like his father but in Unlike Gwen, Bobby had his father around but he seemed to think differently compared to his father.
ReplyDeleteYou can see that Gwen had a huge impact on Bobby life because it says, “Until Gwen, you had no idea who you were. none. During Gwen, you knew. After Gwen, Youre back to wondering”. It seems as if Gwen was Bobby’s foundation and the person who kept him sane. The word “wonder” suggests a lack of direction and before Bobby met her, he didn't know himself. I wonder if Bobby’s father felt bad for killing the only person he loved. I believe Bobby's father deserved to die because he spent his whole life thinking about himself and by killing Gwen it shows his selfishness. because he didn't care about how it would affect Bobby. When the narrator says, “ the old man claw away the dirt for a while, and then she is, all back and rotted, bones exposed in some places” reminds me of an episode of Law & Order SVU. In Law & Order SVU, they deal with victims that have been raped and usaullly the suspects throw the dead body in the river or in a ditch. When bobby says, “i wish I’d taken your picture” suggests that he regrets that he wasn't there to protect Gwen and that he was there for her.
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ReplyDeleteDid a man who for his entire life as it seems through they eyes of booby, kill, steal, scam etc, deserve to die ? Did a man who I think showed no conscious in regards to the grandmother being shot and who killed a hooker, mandy, or so it was portrayed, deserve to die ? Did a man who raised his child to be just as bad a person as he was, and continue the bloodline of crime, deserve to die at the hands of his own child? Yes. My reasoning behind this is through the actions and effects on lives that bobby’s father has had through his entire life. He has ended them, ruined them and made them hard for others, as described by bobby himself, if someones own son cannot find the good in them, then who can ? He spent the entire story, driven by a deadly sin, greed, this droved him to commit horrible crimes just so he could find a stone that he thought would set him free of everything and let him retire, but in actuality it led to his demise. Death is cruel, by your own son is even worse, but his actions throughout his life, in the story, have all led to his justification. I think something that is most important to note is that the old man never called himself an old man until he realized that he was on the brink of dying. He wasn’t referred to by his physical presence, until he was on the brink of being forgotten, not remembered,by whom he was as a person, his identity, horrible identity was soon to be forgotten by bobby, he was no longer his father, he was a dead old man, what he should’ve been for a while.
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